When you have kids, caregiving tasks are never-ending. You have to make breakfast and pack lunches. Throw in yet another load of laundry. Answer snack requests. Pick up goldfish off of every surface in your home. Put away toys. Answer more snack requests. It can all be overwhelming. In this episode, Dr. Becky talks to author and therapist KC Davis about how to care for yourself and your home when everything feels like it's just too much. Join Good Inside Membership: https://bit.ly/3cqgG2A Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For a full transcript of the episode, go to goodinside.com/podcast
Good Inside with Dr. Becky - The Voices Inside Our Heads Episode
DR. BECKY NARR: We all have voices inside of us. Voices that tell us we’re not enough, voices that blame us when things feel hard, voices that question our abilities.
And these voices - while we experience them as holding us back - are actually trying to help us out. And knowing this changes everything.
My guest today will help us all understand these voices - and make them work for us, instead of against us.
I’m Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. We’ll be right back.
AD BREAK
DR. BECKY NARR: I’m Dr. Becky and this is Good Inside. I'm a clinical psychologist and mom of three on a mission to rethink the way we raise our children.
DR. BECKY: If you've listened to this podcast before, then you have definitely heard me talk about IFS - Internal Family Systems. Internal Family Systems is a framework. I think about a lot in my work and you, no doubt have heard me talk about it and how to apply it to what is going on for us and what is going on with our kids. Essentially IFS is about figuring out our relationship with all of the different parts of us. Even the idea of internal family systems helps us look at what's going on inside of us in a way where we see our own family system. We think a lot about a family system outside of us, maybe with our family of origin or with our partner and the kid, but we also have a lot going on inside of us.
And so it might not be a big surprise, but it might be a surprise that when I asked the good inside membership community, who they would most want to hear from as a podcast guest, I gave them the choice of anyone. It was an open fill in the blank. They could have said anyone in the world. This is not a joke that there were more votes for Dick Schwartz, the father, the founder of Internal Family System than anyone else. Okay. You are truly a hero. You are the ultimate. Okay. So have you Dick or having like a not so great day any day in your life, just remember that you have that honor. Okay. More than anyone else, it was like, yes. Please figure out how to get Dick Schwartz on the podcast.
So welcome. I am truly so honored to be talking with you.
DICK DR. SCHWARTZ: Well, it's so great to be talking to you again, Dr. Becky. And I do feel very, very honored by that.
DR. BECKY: So you heard me give a very, very simplified, maybe my version of what IFS is, but there are definitely a lot of people listening who are thinking I… I don't know what that is. This is the first time I've ever heard that. So can you say a little bit more in your words, like how would you describe IFS for someone who's never come across it before?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I'm still trying to put together an elevator speech after 40 years, but I'll give it another shot. So the basic idea is that we all have what I call parts of us that interact inside of us, and there are often patterns to those interactions but what we call thinking is often debates between one part that says do it. And another part says don't you dare. And, that kind of goes on without us even being aware that they're coming from separate entities in a sense. And so I stumbled onto this when my clients began talking about their parts and they would talk about the “critic”. And then the one who made them binge, because I was working with eating disorders and all that would trigger the part that made them feel worthless. I thought they were just talking metaphorically about their emotions, but they started talking about these parts as if they had a lot of autonomy and had relationships with each other. And I got curious and learned that indeed, not just my clients, but we all have these, these little critters inside of us and that they're all valuable. We're sort of born this way because they have valuable qualities and resources to help us in our lives, but trauma and attachment injuries or bad parenting, which is your specialty…
DR. BECKY: My specialty is bad parenting?
DR. SCHWARTZ: ...is fixing bad parenting, yes. Those events force them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be destructive and can affect our parenting. So the goal of IFS is to help those parts unburden the extreme beliefs and emotions that came from those traumas. And at which point they'll almost like a curse has been lifted, they'll transform into their naturally valuable states and they become helpers in our parenting rather than obstacles.
DR. BECKY: So we all have parts of us and actually figuring out kind of the adaptive and desired role for each of those parts is, is really, really key. Now, just to kind of start again with the foundation, one of the things you talk about is kind of different categories of parts, right? They kind of fall into different categories. Can you give a brief overview of kind of "Self" and the categories of different parts.
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. You know My training is as a family therapist. So I, as I'm hearing about all this, I'm trying to make a map of what the territory is in there. And so I looking for distinctions and the big distinction that leaped out immediately was between parts of us that before they were hurt or shamed or terrified were these, what other systems call these innocent inner children who lend us all kinds of playfulness and liveliness and creativity and joy.
But once they get hurt. Or scared or shamed they take on those feelings, it's almost like a virus. They take into them what we call those burdens and those organize their activities thereafter and drive the way they are. And also they get frozen in time. So that many of these parts think you're still five years old and think you're still in as much danger as you were back then, and that they have to protect you in the same way.
Those parts that are these vulnerable inner children who get so hurt or shamed or terrified. Now they have the power to make us feel terrible. They can blend with us and take over and, and make us feel what they carry. And so we don't want anything to do with them. And we think we're just moving on from the memories, sensations, emotions, and beliefs of the trauma. We don't realize that we're locking them away in inner basements and moving on in our life but leaving, actually, many of our most precious qualities in these inner cells. And so those we call exiles.
DR. BECKY: Can we give an example of that just to get it really grounded. So knowing a lot of our listeners are parents, their parents of young kids. I know a theme and I'd love to explore this further as we go on is… parents who feel like they've really lost access to any of the kind of non caregiving, non gazing out, taking care of other parts, right? So there might've been a part of them in this model. Let's see that...I dunno that loves to play soccer, loved to like just be free and move their body. Or maybe there's a part that loved to be creative. Um, I don't know, I'm making this up and when they were young, they always, it was just like “Oh, you're making us late in this family. And you're so selfish and you never listen to me. Put away those crayons. Why are you always so into yourself? Don't you know your responsibilities in this family” let's say, right, this was happening. How does that relate to this exile and burden?
DR. SCHWARTZ: So that message coming from a parent goes right to the heart of these young parts and they take in the shame of it and we do too. And we now just to survive in the family feel like we have to put away the part that wants to color or be creative. And it feels very ashamed too. It carries that burden of worthlessness. And so we wind up moving on in our life and having the sense of worthlessness drive our life and not having access to the creativity that we locked away that way.
DR. BECKY: So now let's say, you know, this is a memory, a series of memories, five years old, six year old girl. Now this person's a mom…
DR. SCHWARTZ: Hmm.
DR. BECKY: Right? And how might the other parts of her system serve in a way that they think they're being helpful, right? Or maybe initially they were helpful to the system but as you were saying now are maybe working more against her than for her. What are the other parts? There's this kind of burdened kind of child part that's carrying around this burden of worthlessness, right? Ok. What else is in this Internal Family System?
DR. SCHWARTZ: So when you have a part that gets exiled that way, then other parts have to leave their naturally valuable states and become “Protectors”. And some of them will protect the system in your family as your child, by echoing the message that you got from your parent. And they become these “inner critics”. And they're criticizing you just to desperately try to keep you safe from more criticism from your parent. To preempt it or to keep that playful creative part locked away? So it doesn't show up and get more attack from the mother or the father. So some of them are trying to manage your life so you fit in the family and you don't get more shame. And so we call those “Managers”. They're the ones who are working all the time to keep us safe that way. And they also get stuck back there. They also think even as an adult, they have to criticize you and they'll use your parents' voice to do it. But it's not just the inner critics that are the managers there's lots of others. There are parts that maybe take care of everybody so that they love you. And for them to depend on you and they don't let you take care of yourself for example, or there are parts that keep you in your head all the time so you don't feel your emotions or your body very much.
DR. BECKY: And so in that situation those “managers”, if I'm thinking about and this was a client of mine who, it seemed like every waking hour, it was like the kid's schedule and their after-schools and the care-taking and the perfect house, right?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
DR. BECKY: Could that be seen as a, as a part that kind of, that busy-ness that pouring herself out that kind of serve to keep at bay this more creative, fun, loving part. There's almost no time for her to emerge in adulthood.
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and that is what happens to us. You know, one parent maybe does that by focusing on their career. And then the other parent does it by focusing on the kids. But either way, it's a big distraction because when you have a lot of exiles, you got to find a way to stay away from their, their emotions and so these perfectionistic managers really start to focus on your kids and impose those same burdens onto your kids. That becomes what I call a legacy burden in the sense that it gets handed down through the generations of, you know, you have to work hard all the time. There's no time for coloring and you've got to do all these activities to make sure you're perfect. And so you make me feel good.
DR. BECKY: Okay. So on that note, I want us to listen to a question actually on this topic from one of the good inside members.
JESSICA KLUG VM: Hi, Dr. Becky, my name is Jessica and I wanted to ask Dr. Schwartz a question. What would you say to parents who are worried about their legacy parts being passed down to their children? How would we know that's happening and how can we help them? Thanks.
DR. BECKY: So this is, this is right on time, right?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, perfect.
DR. BECKY: Because I hear, and I think it would be good to jump in with an example so we can make it really concrete because one of the things I do here is I want to give a different version of motherhood to my kids. I don't want to pass on this legacy of martyrdom of loss, of self, of alternating between depletion and rage, depletion, rage, depletion, rage, and self-sacrifice. And how? How do I do that? How do I change that?
DR. SCHWARTZ: So are you saying those are your personal legacy burdens that came
DR. BECKY: Yeah, let's say that with someone's legacy burden, this legacy of yeah. Of self sacrifice of martyrdom, of loss of self, and maybe it is even related to the other example, like a loss as they became a mother of, of other parts of them that had more vitality, more self-interest, more curiosity, more creativity.
DR. SCHWARTZ: So particularly in mothers, the cultural legacy burden would be patriarchy and the idea that women should be self-sacrificing and take care of everybody. So that would be. The root of that legacy, but it might also be related to your personal lineage and something that happened, you know, centuries ago in the way of a trauma that made that person, that mother, feel like she couldn't take care of herself and she needed to take care of everybody else. And then it comes down through the generations so just even to notice that you have that impulse and ideally to get feedback from therapists or friends, is the first step. And then there's a whole process by which we can have you identify it and actually unload it once you decide that you don't want to live your life that way.
MIDROLL
DR. BECKY: You use the word curious a lot. And I know that you talk about kind of something called the eight C's of "Self" and it just always strikes this like, oh, that feels so right. And in some ways, so intuitive, you know, when, whenever I read the words you write about that or hear you, so can you talk about self with a capital S in these eight C's?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So in the early days, I didn't know about Self and I was just working with these parts as a family therapist, trying to help them get along once I learned that they weren't what they seemed. So I would try to have them have dialogues with each other and I would find that sometimes it would go. Okay. And then, maybe I'm trying to get my client to listen to her “critic”. And suddenly she's furious at the “critic”. And it reminded me of family sessions where I'm having two family members talk to each other and a third jumps in and interferes. So I started asking, could you get the one who's so angry at the critic to just give us some space and chill for a minute and to my amazement clients could do it. And when that happened, it was like a whole other person popped out who was spontaneously curious, but also calm and confident and even had compassion for the critics suddenly. And the critic would respond very well to that and would share its secret history of how it got forced into this role and how it carries the mother's voice and so on. And then we could go ahead and… and heal it. But as I did this with other clients and found the same person would pop out simply by getting other parts to step out and give some room. And I… I saw that not only those four C's that I just mentioned, but people would also suddenly have clarity that the part would look different would look a lot less menacing. They would have the courage to go places inside they were afraid of before. Suddenly they would have very creative ways of relating inside and they would also have a desire to connect. So those are the 8 C words that characterize this person who popped out. And when I'm working with a parent, the goal becomes to help them lead their parenting from this place, with those 8 C's, what we call self-led parenting.
DR. BECKY: And, and that's a great transition. I just want to name them…these eight C’s. Compassion. Creativity. Curiosity. Confident. Courage. Calm. Connectedness. Clarity. And, you know, the lexicon was like really generous to you with all those C words. Like it really worked out. I hope you've, I hope you've thanked the dictionary…
DR. SCHWARTZ: I have indeed. Yes.
DR. BECKY: So I would love to take a question from another Jessica. A different Jessica… who wants to hear from you around kind of, she says it a little differently, but essentially accessing self in helping her child.
JESSICA COLAS VM: Hi, Dr. Becky. My question is about my 12 year old daughter. She shared with me harsh thoughts she has about her appearance and can be very critical of herself. She's been biting her nails for years and has tried to stop, but it's never lasted more than a few weeks. She's also smart, thoughtful, very funny and has close friends, I've talked to her about our different parts and she's receptive. My question today is how can I go deeper with her? For example, leading her through an ifs meditation, or encouraging her to try one herself or other ideas on how to make this material come alive for an adolescent. Thanks very much.
DR. SCHWARTZ: Well, first, let me compliment you on how you're relating to her around these parts. You know, the parts that she described are what we call firefighters. They're trying to keep her away from her bad feelings inside, often it's feelings of shame and worthlessness and so they, they, do things like make you bite your nails or focus on appearance and Some of that is often a distraction from these more vulnerable feelings. And so many of us as parents focus on the behavior and try to get them to stop without getting curious about the source of the behavior. And so, this Jessica, is doing exactly the right thing. Which is to be very present and compassionate. And, and then in terms of the next steps…
DR. BECKY: Can I jump in before the next steps? Cause I, you just said something I want to echo too, where part of me heard Jessica's voicemail. And I would have been like "No, no, no, you're doing a lot, like next question", you know what I mean? Like you're doing so, and, and, and just for everyone listening here, when our kids are struggling, my kids too, like I go into, okay, what else can I do? What else can I do? How can I go deeper? How can I do more? And I think that comes from such an amazing impulse. We have to want to support our kids. And it was just powerful to spend a little bit more time than we naturally do in the like, wow, I'm doing a lot and like My child's immediate behavior isn't always a great barometer for the impact our relationship is having, and I'm doing a lot, right? I hear Jessica and I'm like, whoa, like I, can I have you on speed dial? Like, you're, you're pretty amazing.
DR. SCHWARTZ: That's a really good point. And, you know, I was developing IFS and raising my kids at the same time, my girls. And, I would try that. I would say, okay, let's get to know this part of you. And they came to have a common phrase of get outta here with that part shit, daddy. So…
DR. BECKY: I like your kids.
DR. SCHWARTZ: And, so I had to back off and learn to do with just what Jessica did, which is just to be stay itself with those eight C's while my kids are talking about these kinds of problems and get the part of me that wants to fix them so desperately to relax and step back and trust that the best I can do at that point is really just convey that compassion and presence.
DR. BECKY: Let's go in two directions from here. One is what is something else? You hear this, that you might tell a parent, oh, try this. Or, you know, when it feels right. And then the other question I want you to answer, even though Jessica didn't ask it, is why wouldn't you say to a kid, you know, "stop biting your nails or like, why, why not to say, "oh, stop doing that. That's so bad for you or, you know, well, here's the sticker for every day you don't bite your nails", right? So let's get to that second. Cause I think there's a lot of listeners who might be thinking understandably like, whoa, all this part stuff, like there might just be a shorter route just to like stop the nail biting. So let's, let's get to that understandable skepticism. After we maybe share with Jessica, like one additional thing she might want to have in her toolbox.
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well, that's the parenting approach my parents used, which was any kind of bad habit… “Just, just stop it”. It reminds me of that, that old, Bob Newhart routine where he's the therapist.
DR. BECKY: “Just.”
DR. SCHWARTZ: “Stop it.” The problem with that is, first of all, you can't always just stop it. And so you feel very ashamed of yourself for the lack of willpower as a kid, And then in just stopping it, you may be exiling a part that really wants attention. And you're going to raise a kid who might not chew his fingernails, might even perform well in school, but is really cut off from large segments of his psyche that he'll pay for it later.
DR. BECKY: And that firefighter behavior can then escalate, right?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Yeah. Because if he's not getting to and embracing his exiles, which is really….When you're present in a loving way and your child senses, it's okay to be vulnerable. And those exiles can come out, not overtly maybe, but just, you know, that kid knows he can cry with you and talk about what's going on and, and, you're not in any way shaming or distancing or telling them to grow up. That's very healing for those exiles, even though you're not explicitly doing IFS with your kid. Just the sense that all parts are welcome, that you're conveying is a very healing message and is the opposite of the message of "just stop doing it".
DR. BECKY: Yeah. So for Jessica, is that what you would share with her? Like you're, you're doing so much and just showing up in that way, staying curious, staying compassionate, kind of in some ways you're saying that that part is lovable and can be present in her presence, right? I think?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Exactly right. The more you can accept all the different parts of your kid, the more they'll be able to accept them and listen to them and love them. And the more you don't accept certain parts, the more they're going to exile those or polarize.
DR. BECKY: And just for everyone listening. I know for me sometimes I think too, like, well, do I want my kid to accept all of their parts? Like some of that seems pretty intense or nasty and you know what I often come back to and Dick, I'm curious if you see it the same way is, you know, kind of the parts, the experiences, the feelings my kid internalizes as unacceptable. Like there's no choice, but for those experiences to have to end up being expressed outside their body. It's… it's almost like the more I can help my child sit with all of their parts. That's actually key to learning, to regulate and manage all of the feelings, all the experiences they're going to have, which actually from a practical standpoint, it leads to a decrease in kind of quote, bad or acting out behavior because my child is able to kind of have all those experiences live somewhere inside their body instead of expel them outside their body.
DR. SCHWARTZ: That's exactly right. And it also is not easy if you, as a parent, have an attitude about a bunch of your parts.
DR. BECKY: Hmm.
DR. SCHWARTZ: So that's all going to transfer into how you relate to your kid when they act like some of the parts of you that you don't like, or that you have shame about.
DR. BECKY: So know what Dick, I now feel like you received the questions from our members in advance because I have one more I want to play. And once again you've like previewed it. So either, you know, either someone sent something to you or you have the password to my computer. Or you just are, are all knowing. So I don't know. It's one of those or all those things.
LIEVE DE LINT VM: Hi, Dr. Schwartz. My name is Lieve de Lint. My question is around triggers. I hear many parents feeling triggered by words or behaviors of their children or partners, including myself, and, when we're tired or overwhelmed, our reaction can feel and be fast and feel intense. And besides doing the deeper inner work in meeting and hearing our parts, do you have any phrase or exercise we can do in that moment when we feel, let's say our heart hit and when we enter into a reaction versus a response?
DR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, great question. And, I have two answers to that. One is, and it's taken me a long time to get good at this, but, as I go through the day and I'm faced with various challenges and provocations. I'm noticing my parts and I've gotten very familiar with how they affect my body and when I notice that impulse come, I can pause. And sometimes I literally ask the person I'm talking to, to just give me a second. And if you had a microphone in my head, it would be some version of “it's okay. Just let me stay. You know, it always goes better if you let me handle this”. And I'll feel this shift of the palpable shift and that all that energy will kind of step back. And so on a good day, I can do that. Now, there are times like she was saying, when you're really tired or you're sick where you can't and a part does go off on your kid and you really sense it did damage, but there's always a chance to repair. And so I got very good at going to my kids and saying "You know, yesterday when I yelled at you about that, I'm really sorry. I'm going to keep working with this part that has such an attitude about that. And, you know, I really don't want you to do what we were talking about, but I should've said it in a much different way". So the repair is a really important part of parenting and it's hard for many parents.
DR. BECKY: And I'm just like so glad we're ending on this because it's in line with everything I believe to be true too. And when parents… parents will often ask me, like, what's your best tip? Like, give me your quick, best parenting tip. I'm always under so much pressure. I'm like, okay. You know, but, but it's always easy for me. I'm always like, if you're going to get really good at one thing in parenting, get really good at repair. And I think there's like a power in thinking about that because if you get really good at repair, it actually almost requires you to keep messing up. Like it, it really assumes that you're not going to get it perfect all the time, right? Nobody is parenting like it looks on that one Instagram you saw on someone's feed. Like that is not real parenting. That is in some ways just shame and guilt inducing parenting. And being a parent who can, I think, first repair with themself, right? Kind of find your own goodness under your latest, not so great behavior. That's always step one. I think it's the step we, um, we miss… that like kind of version of compassion toward ourself first and then the step two of yeah. Reconnecting your kid. Probably. I haven't thought about it this way, but you almost probably add all those, those C's to a moment that probably lacked all those C's or at least you add some of them…
DR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely right. That’s the repairative element is coming back to your kid saying “I'm sorry” from this open-hearted compassionate place and just owning what you did and, and that's you hinted at this, but that's really hard when you have a very intense shaming “protector”, who is making you feel worthless for having done it, then you're going to have another part that wants to defend you and deny what you did or distort it to say you had a good reason for it. And then you'd wind up not making the repair, right?
DR. BECKY: That's exactly right. And so repair is just like where it’s at. That's what I always say, and you know, when… when we repair with our kids, I always imagine, I don't know why, like the moment with my kid that felt bad was some like temporary ending to a chapter, but like, I don't want to end the chapter that way. And when I repair, like I actually get to go back and like reopen it and like add a different ending and. Uh, you know, this thing, I think for so many people repair, which can feel so shame inducing, like, oh, what's wrong with me? I think the opposite, like, oh, look at this opportunity. I have like, I have this opportunity to end this differently. It's so empowering.
DR. SCHWARTZ: Exactly right.
DR. BECKY: Thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you so much for joining me here. Thank you so much for your incredibly impactful work. And I know it's only a matter of time before I track you down and talk to you again soon.
DR. SCHWARTZ: I always love talking to you anytime. Dr. Becky and I’m so grateful and honored that I can be a part of your message to parents because I think it's so important what you're doing.
DR. BECKY: Thank you.
OUTRO & CREDITS
DR. BECKY NARR: Thanks for listening.
To share a story or ask me a question, go to Good Inside.com slash podcast. You can also write me at podcast@goodinside.com.
Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world. And parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I’m so excited to share Good Inside Membership - the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It’s totally game changing.
Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise.
Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Natt and Kristin Mueller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Jill Cromwell-Wang, Ashley Valenzuela, and the rest of the Good Inside team.
And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside.